Product Evaluation.

[oldtimer1]

excuse me for jumping in here ..i believe fytocell cannot be overwatered to create aneorobic conditions ..max water retention is about 66%

If you get unused organic matter from organic fertiliser building up in a medium, it putrefies, its like a slime, it changes the structure of the likes of fytocell so it holds more water and becomes heavy and anaerobic. ie the combination act more like water holding crystals.

I had a friend who tried a grow with fytocell and organic PM, it looked very good until mid flower, by the end there were all sorts of lock out showing.

We cut the root balls open the medium was slimy and very heavy, you could ring it out, what ran out was like snot, none of this would happen with chemical salt fertilisers, the fytocell would have kept its open fluffy structure, I don't know if an active micro heard could be established, my friend did not try, to add to the problem he tried feeding more to compensate for the apparent deficiencies.

[Guest budzilla2010]

Thanks for the reply OT1. I realise your not a Hydro grower etc, but I knew you'd still be able to shed some light on the matter for me.

I considered the overwatering part with Fytocell and since it only holds a maximum of 60% water, and always 37% air(37% air at all times even if saturated and submerged) I thought i'd be able to avoid the anaerobic conditions.

I also thought I'd just use a standard 11Ltr pot and hand water to aid drainage, I was considering a Hempy Bucket and maybe that would work if I could get a micro heard to thrive in the Res, but I guess there's maybe a risk of it creating an anaerobic environment, but then I also consider that if its hand watered every day/other day then the fresh nute mix and air drawn in should keep things active.

I think I'll give it a go, maybe just test 2 plants out of 4 against my current schedule. I should find out if works soon enough after starting. maybe even 2 in pots an 1 in a Hempy.

I'm still unsure weather to try the PM granules though, I would try them if I knew they'd cause no harm, whether or not they worked. It sounds like it would be great help if it did work though. I think I asked PM the question so hopefully I will know soon enough.

I will get the BM Bioponic mix as per the GH feed schedule but they only say to add this in the last week of veg and first week of flower, I can't understand how the plants are to feed if there is nothing to add or promote the micro heard in the initial vegetating period (unless there is something else going on that I have not yet realised or considered), I guess I will add some initially anyway, I don't think you use much in the mix, 1 gram to 10 litres of feed, I think there should be plenty for 1 grow.

I know I need to do a bit more research on understanding the biological processes that occur in the rootzone before I start off, understanding the differences between Mycorrhiza, trichoderma h and the other organisms that may be present in an active biological root system.

TBH I need to do a lot more research on this biological process first.

If I can get the micro heard to start off I reckon they would have to thrive in Fytocell, the roots like Fytocell like nothing I've ever seen so I have such a good feeling that that the micro heard would love it once it gets going too.

e2a - i didn't see the previous two posts.

Edited March 9, 2011 by budzilla2010

[Guest budzilla2010]

excuse me for jumping in here ..i believe fytocell cannot be overwatered to create aneorobic conditions ..max water retention is about 66%

If you get unused organic matter from organic fertiliser building up in a medium, it putrefies, its like a slime, it changes the structure of the likes of fytocell so it holds more water and becomes heavy and anaerobic. ie the combination act more like water holding crystals.

I had a friend who tried a grow with fytocell and organic PM, it looked very good until mid flower, by the end there were all sorts of lock out showing.

We cut the root balls open the medium was slimy and very heavy, you could ring it out, what ran out was like snot, none of this would happen with chemical salt fertilisers, the fytocell would have kept its open fluffy structure, I don't know if an active micro heard could be established, my friend did not try, to add to the problem he tried feeding more to compensate for the apparent deficiencies.

Thanks for all the info.

Its interesting that happened. Do you think the same would happen if you mixed the Fytocell in with the compost?

The people who make Fytocell say if using it in a potting mix to mix it 1 part Fytocell to 2 parts soil/compost mix. I was thinking of running with this mix also as it would make it easier but then it wouldn't be hydroponic, but I don't know now it sounds a bit risky.

I suppose they put Fytocell in PM soil, would the Fytocell bits in the PM soil go sludgy, given that the soil around the Fytocell would be wetter than the Fytocell itself causing the Fytocell to hold a lot of the organic nutes at 60%. Wouldn't this same anaerobic effect happen?

Its also interesting that it did work fine and well until mid flower. Could it not be that something happened to kill the micro heard mid grow which then cause the organic matter to build up and rot the system? I read that if the ''Micro organism's (as termed by General Hydroponics)'' are killed using Biosevia the PH drops rapidly, I guess this is accounting for the abundant organic matter running through and the dead micro heard organic matter.

GH say:

a significant drop in pH is an alarm signal that indicates the death of a large quantity of micro-organisms. In this case, it is important to find the cause, treat it and replace with new BM.

Can you tell me how your friend was growing it, was he just running to waste Passive Hydro or was he running it in a system with a reservoir?

I'm also interested to know if he used anything to create and promote the micro heard like the BM mix, Granules or Subculture as General Hydroponics say the BM mix is vital when using in hydroponics

General Hydroponics say:

But in hydroponics BioSevia must be used in conjunction with BM mix which is needed to reproduce, in the nutritive solution, the soil's natural degradation process.

They don't say exactly what is in the BM mix, but they do say that if you use Subculture you don't have to use BM mix as Subculture is both a ''Mycorrhizal Root Inoculant'' and the second part of Subculture is a ''Bacterial Root Inoculant'' - some of this must then be in the BM mix. Sounds better to run with Subculture if I do it anyway.

They also said the'' BM mix'' could be used on 'humid substrates like coco fibre rockwool and perlite'' as well as ''On bare roots or in draining substrate like clay pebbles or lava rocks: Use the BioFiltre, which will give your micro-organisms the right environment to live in and develop''.

So that's why I assumed it was possible to use the whole Biosevia range with Fytocell as it must be less anaerobic than rockwool. I was obviously assuming their application instructions for using the BM mix in those substrates is suggesting the whole range can be used.

I'm 50/50. I wish I could hear from more people that have tried Biosevia as a Passive Hydro nute and have managed to populate a micro heard.

e2a - I just found out that Subculture is Biomagix

Edited March 10, 2011 by budzilla2010

[oldtimer1]

My friend was mixing fresh and watering into 11 litre pots with pot saucers, he tipped surplus away after watering.

My main point is you cannot store organic nutrients mixed up in a tank or reservoir for more than a few hours without air, circulation and preferably a populated bio filter. Its nature, all organic things once they are no longer living rot and break down, the bacteria and fungus that do this are every where in every thing all the time in their billions.

[Guest budzilla2010]

My friend was mixing fresh and watering into 11 litre pots with pot saucers, he tipped surplus away after watering.

My main point is you cannot store organic nutrients mixed up in a tank or reservoir for more than a few hours without air, circulation and preferably a populated bio filter. Its nature, all organic things once they are no longer living rot and break down, the bacteria and fungus that do this are every where in every thing all the time in their billions.

Thanks for the info OT and taking the time to help with this.

It does sound like a completely new and somewhat complex way of doing things, I should hopefully get my head around it eventually.

I believe the main aspect of the Biosevia is the way it reacts in a tank of water and that it doesn't rot slowly but is available instantly and it is only released when its active with the 'Mirco Organiasms', still I'm only relaying Ghe's retail PDF speak and do not fully understand the science behind it.

It is a completely different way of doing things as thus far I have found out that the amount of Biosevia put in the mix does not directly effect EC levels as the EC levels only rise once the Beneficials have broken down the organic matter. I am obviously looking at this thinking I may have bitten off more than I can chew.

I've looked at Bio Filters and they are basically a 2 stage Aquarium filter with no Activated Carbon part, just a filter screen and a ceramic particle chamber (much like GHe's 'Stars'). I could easily make on of these if I was to propose using a 100L tank to hold my filtered nutes to which I would replace with Biosevia mix after taking say 10L a day from the inoculated nute tank.

A lot for me to think about and I won't go jumping in straight away but instead treat it a s a project to explore the possibilities etc, it also gives me a reason to look into the biological activity in soils using bacteria and fungii to enable the plants uptake of nutrients - basically what you Compie growers know already.

Maybe I will try 1 Part Fytocell to 2 parts Orgainic soil (maybe Batmix) and use the OT bloom, If I do go down the Bioponic route with Biosevia I will now strike off 100% Fytocell and probably start looking at the possibility if mixing it 20/80 Perlite/Fytocell, or even 10% coco, 30% Perlite 60% Fytocell.

using a soil mix may help me get a better understanding of what I'm dealing with and I can still use the Biosevia nutes to get a grasp of them and they way they work and are released.

Thanks again OT, I did not considered these detrimental possibilities before, saves me falling at the first hurdle..... I hope!!

I think I'll get onto Ghe and see if they can supply me with info on this process, there must be someone out there who has tried and tested this with MJ and eventually managed to get it to work in a practical sense. I can't be the only nutter that's up for trying it.

[vince noir rock n roll star]

very interesting stuff ot and budzilla ..thank you for explaining this both of you .

[Guest budzilla2010]

very interesting stuff ot and budzilla ..thank you for explaining this both of you .

Cheers Vince, it's grabbed my attention for sure. I'm starting to find results from other growers littered around the net now.

I've also spent all day yesterday till 5 am this morning and all of today trying to find more info and I am getting there eventually but there is a lot to comprehend.

I have decided to take the plunge and have purchased a load of Biosevia gear already.

GHe also have a product called 'FloraKleen' which would remove any built up residue in the media without killing the beneficials should I be in the same situation as OT1's friend. Although he never managed to populate an active Micro heard which is the key to making Bioponics work.

I may or may not do a diary, I will see after I complete some preliminary testing. I will report all finding, be it in Preliminary reports or a full grow report.

I'm pretty much 100% sure it is possible to get great yeilds of fine tasting weed using these methods in Passive Hydro, its just trying to find a programme that works with MJ and that can be done without too much fuss.

I'm pretty sure someone must have also done this and put something up on the net, if I could find this then I'll be cooking on gas for sure.

I'm sure I will get there with the help, support and advice from the members of our community.