Split from pedophile priest thread

[Arnold Layne]

we have no other choice but to express ourselves via language, with its inherent limitations.

Not so.

There are alternatives like not expressing ourselves at all, often very expressive in itself.

And then there is the language of love and good works.

To demonstrate the love in practical ways, says more about a person's faith than a library of books or a pulpit full of recorded sermons.

Is organisation always good? I'm not sure it is, in the spiritual realm. Where material things are, then maybe yes. But where one seeks the Spirit, organisation is often the enemy.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Arnold Layne

[BudFan]

..for me religion and science are asking 2 different questions ..dawkins sees them as direct competitors, possibly in the fight to deliver 'reality' or 'world view' to the masses ...

Yes I think you are right about dawkins opinion. I have never personally felt that they are mutually exclusive at all.

Though one can be used to attack the other, of course!

It should be noted that topics like "creationalism" (which we know flies in the face of science) are not mainstream Christianity, and the people who tout them are pretty much on the fringes of society, (everywhere except the US, where I understand that there are a lot of fundamentalist Christians, who believe in a very literal translation of the stories of the Old Testament).

[BudFan]

I know Budfan mate, I worked for an Organised Religion most of my working life, got the dog collar to prove it!

Hi there

Phew, didn't expect that

Anglican priest? So what is your circumstance now? Retired / otherwise chucked it?

Don't mean to be nosy sorry! Np if you'd rather not say, none of my business after all!

But even the good works are often tainted.

Tainted how? Corruption, patronage, bribery? I guess no-one is perfect - the self realisation of this does, (I think), feature in a lot of church (& mosque etc) going people's motivation.

Cheers!

[MickyJay4MaryJane]

Wow one of the richest institutions in the world ie the Vatican, does a little bit of charity work eh, oh they must be benevolent and kindhearted, lets not mention that the combined wealth of the Vatican would be enough to alleviate hunger from the world for ever...

Meanwhile Rex Mundi sits on his throne adorned with gold surrounded by unfathomable opulence and priceless artefacts, watching the Catholic Knights of Malta steering most of the worlds wealthiest and most successful corporations.

"The Third Reich is the first power which not only recognizes, but which puts into practice the high principles of the Papacy."- Franz von Papen, a papal Knight and Hitler's most successful henchman, Der Volkischer Beobachter of January 14, 1934.

Edited April 23, 2010 by MickyJay4MaryJane

[BudFan]

To demonstrate the love in practical ways, says more about a person's faith than a library of books or a pulpit full of recorded sermons.

Agree absolutely.

Is organisation always good? I'm not sure it is, in the spiritual realm. Where material things are, then maybe yes. But where one seeks the Spirit, organisation is often the enemy.

I think you could have a point in theory, but it is harder to demonstrate in actuality, as you are then back to just a conflict of opinions on how to do things.

You know humans - love to feel like they belong to something!

[Arnold Layne]

you'd rather not say

[BudFan]

lets not mention that the combined wealth of the Vatican would be enough to alleviate hunger from the world for ever...

I'd love to see your figures, charts, projections etc to support that.......

Gonna be a lot of paperwork Id imagine, to prove a finite sum of money could prevent all global hunger in the face of all war, famine, interest rates, population growth and environmental changes for all eternity

Why do you think there are soo many poor people in need of help?

Are you unaware?

As above, various reasons - famine, disease, corrupt or brutal governments, environmental change, incompetence, war, hard drugs and no doubt many other reasons.

Malta steering most of the worlds wealthiest and most successful corporations.

Corporations such as? Evidence etc?

"The Third Reich is the first power which not only recognizes, but which puts into practice the high principles of the Papacy."- Franz von Papen, a papal Knight and Hitler's most successful henchman, Der Volkischer Beobachter of January 14, 1934.

What point are you making here?

[weed_G]

don't think all organised religions are bad as such ..they do have some redeeming qualities in providing a support system for local people living in oppressive or difficult conditions ...

On Colombia

Noam Chomsky

Terrorizing Colombia, Zed, December 2004

As I write, I have just received the most recent of the regular notices from the Jesuit-based human rights organization Justicia y Paz in Bogotà, directed by the courageous priest Father Javier Giraldo, one of Colombia’s leading defenders of human rights, at great personal risk. This notice reports the assassination of an Afro-Colombian human rights activist, Yolanda Cerón Delgado, as she was leaving the pastoral social office near the police station. Justicia y Paz reports that it is a typical paramilitary operation, in association with the government security forces and police. Regrettably, the event is not remarkable.

The Latin American Catholic Church became a particular target when the Bishops adopted the “preferential option for the poor” in the 1960s and ‘70s, and priests, nuns, and lay workers began to establish base communities were peasants read the Gospels and drew from their teachings lessons about elementary human rights, and worse yet, even began to organize to defend their rights. The horrendous Reagan decade, commemorated with reverence and awe in the United States, is remembered rather differently in the domains where his administration waged the “war on terror” that it declared on coming to office in 1981: El Salvador, for example, where the decade is framed by the assassination in March 1980 of an Archbishop who had become a “voice for the voiceless” and the assassination of six leading Latin American intellectuals, Jesuit priests, in November 1989, by an elite force armed and trained by the US which had left a shocking trail of blood and torture in earlier years. The (now renamed) School of the Americas, which has trains Latin American officers, including some of the continent’s most outstanding torturers and mass murderers, takes pride in having helped to “defeat liberation theology,” one of the “talking points” in its public relations efforts. Such matters arouse little interest in the West, and are scarcely known apart from specialists and the solidarity movements. The reaction would be somewhat different if anything remotely similar had taken place in those years in the domains of the official enemy.

www.chomsky.info/articles/200412--.htm

..this is the danger ...worth recognising and guarding against regardless of the institution... including science .

Is organisation always good? I'm not sure it is, in the spiritual realm. Where material things are, then maybe yes. But where one seeks the Spirit, organisation is often the enemy.

[MickyJay4MaryJane]

Bankers' best guesses about the Vatican's wealth put it at $10 billion to $15 billion, that is enough to buy everyone on earth a nice mcdonalds meal which would alleviate hunger, if only for a finite time.

The point i am making is that the Pagan continuation of the Holy ROman Empire is the original white supremacist organisation, the sexual perversions are part and parcel of what the RCC is and always has been.

e2a re the above post, this is what I mean, South America has always been RC dominated in terms of religion and leadership and look at the mass poverty and terrible living conditions most people there endure, meanwhile north America has never been RC dominated and look at the comparative wealth, superior living conditions and independence they have enjoyed.

Edited April 23, 2010 by MickyJay4MaryJane

[BudFan]

Bankers' best guesses about the Vatican's wealth put it at $10 billion to $15 billion, that is enough to buy everyone on earth a nice mcdonalds meal which would alleviate hunger, if only for a finite time.

The point i am making is that the Pagan continuation of the Holy ROman Empire is the original white supremacist organisation, the sexual perversions are part and parcel of what the RCC is and always has been.

e2a re the above post, this is what I mean, South America has always been RC dominated in terms of religion and leadership and look at the mass poverty and terrible living conditions most people there endure, meanwhile north America has never been RC dominated and look at the comparative wealth, superior living conditions and independence they have enjoyed.

Im pretty sure you are on the wind up, and are not trying to make serious points!

However -

(1) The reason the vatican has a revenue is because, as with everyone else, it has to pay things like taxes, utility bills, running costs, property maintenance, food bills for some half million clergy, as well as its charitable missions of course. These things require money. It is the largest human organisation out there. Sure, it could dissolve itself and use the funds to buy some folks a meal, but then there would be no Catholic Church to help people in future, so that would seem like a pretty silly plan, no? Giving up a constant stream of aid for as long as needed, for a one off lump sum?

(2) The Catholic Church was founded ~2000 years ago, by a fella Jesus and his mates - a bunch of near eastern dudes. They would have looked kinda like the palestinian / arab folks you see on the news at times. White supremacist organisation?

As of 2010, the 3rd world (ie non white) churches become ever more important (to the whole Church) and indeed larger in number. Non-white clergy from around the world are represented at every level in the Church - priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals. A black cardinal was in the running for the Papacy when Benedict was elected. White supremacist organisation?

Ho ho ho!

(3) The point about living standards is a nonsense - the vast majority of europe is catholic and has always been, and europe has traditionally enjoyed some of the highest standards of living on earth. (In fact, there is a remarkable correlation of the advancement of european civilisations, with the spread of Christianity (specifically catholicism)). Much like all other people, sometimes catholic peeps are rich, sometimes poor. Sometimes kinda in the middle too

[Arnold Layne]

Jesus did not found the Catholic Church. That was down to Constantine essentially. And it was much less than 2000 years ago

Roman Catholics love to insist they are the original and even the only Christian Church. Not so, not so by a long long chalk. The history is there for all to see. If you'll pardon the pun

Edited April 24, 2010 by Arnold Layne

[Cosmic Dick]

(2) The Catholic Church was founded ~2000 years ago, by a fella Jesus and his mates - a bunch of near eastern dudes.

What Mr Layne said.

CD

[troy]

But he neglects to inform that children of atheists are also indoctrinated into believing there is no god, also into believing that belief in god or faith in a higher power are signs of weakness and intellectual inferiority.

We've had this debate before earlier in the thread. Its not indoctrination to tell your kinds there is no god and its a lack of belief in a god rather than believing god does not exist in my view. Not all atheists would subscribe to the view that belief in god is a sign of weakness. I would say that it is a result of indoctrination rather than weakness or possibly both.

Edited April 24, 2010 by troy

[weed_G]

But he neglects to inform that children of atheists are also indoctrinated into believing there is no god, also into believing that belief in god or faith in a higher power are signs of weakness and intellectual inferiority.

We've had this debate before earlier in the thread. Its not indoctrination to tell your kinds there is no god

yes, and the argument(if you could call it that) was shot to pieces ..this sentence ' Its not indoctrination to tell your kinds there is no god ' is oxymoronic to say the least ..are you sure you have not been indoctrinated troy?

[sam-i-am]

@ rm dug out "do what you will" (far too stoned to post last night) and that particular essay wasn't there, sorry, it's 20 years since i read it and it's probably one of the ones i got from the library.

Question for the atheists- do you believe in the existence of an objective reality?

e2a and if you do, could you suggest an explanation for the double slit experiment? because that one fair fucks about with my head

Edited April 24, 2010 by sam-i-am