Split from pedophile priest thread

[troy]

My answer to that would be : there is no smoke without fire.

Why do you think the pope is visiting the victims of abuse ?

PR

Sorry weed , I can't take you seriously, good luck.

[Randalizer]

with lazy journalism tapping into both resentment of religion

Gee. I wonder why there is a resentment of religion?

[Arnold Layne]

I believe in God.

But I don't believe in "The father Almighty" Nor in any "Trinity", nor in any "Goddess" tightly defined.

In short, God is just fine with me, but you can take the churches - the whole boatload of 'em aint worth a midges fart.

All argument is absurd since you have no notion of what I mean by "God", nor I what you mean by the same term. Kind of makes things tough, to say the least

And just to get things all nice and straight, when I say "I believe" I do not mean to suggest that I have abandoned reason or logic, or that I am merely giving rational assent to a creed or given definition of the Divine. I mean to say that I trust "God". Implicitly. God will ever be God, and do as God does.

When something has no beginning or end, when it is void of boundary, then definition is ridiculous and immediately destroys that which it would delineate. To attempt a definiton of God is futile. Moreover, it is the reverse of the spiritual journey which almost by definition (for me) is a trip into knowing that which cannot be fully known, and seeing that which goes beyond vision. Religious faith is to stop the trip. I prefer to carry on. So I offer no definition, neither do I seek any. I embrace what I do not understand, and hold tight to that which I cannot fully know.

Urm yes. Man, that yoghurt topped with Oldtimes, don't half knock one about a bit, yeah man, far out ......

[weed_G]

@troy ......to substantiate accusations of paedophilia with the phrase 'there is no smoke without fire' is beyond ridiculous ..straight out of the torch and pitchfork handbook ...the pic is a co2 smoke machine proving that you can indeed have smoke without fire ...the statement as an arbitrary absolute is invalid,.. and that's before we even get to it being used as some kind of axiomatic evidence ..and yes in all seriousness I do believe the current visitations bestowed on the victims are pure PR

All argument is absurd since you have no notion of what I mean by "God", nor I what you mean by the same term. Kind of makes things tough, to say the least w00t.gif

And just to get things all nice and straight, when I say "I believe" I do not mean to suggest that I have abandoned reason or logic, or that I am merely giving rational assent to a creed or given definition of the Divine. I mean to say that I trust "God". Implicitly. God will ever be God, and do as God does.

When something has no beginning or end, when it is void of boundary, then definition is ridiculous and immediately destroys that which it would delineate. To attempt a definiton of God is futile. Moreover, it is the reverse of the spiritual journey which almost by definition (for me) is a trip into knowing that which cannot be fully known, and seeing that which goes beyond vision. Religious faith is to stop the trip. I prefer to carry on. So I offer no definition, neither do I seek any. I embrace what I do not understand, and hold tight to that which I cannot fully know.

fuck me m8 ..it's like you've been wire tapping the voices in my head ..strange I thought that shit was private ... curiouser and curiouser said alice

Edited April 23, 2010 by weed_G

[weed_G]

Do note I entirely respect the right of people to hold whatever views they please, on religion or whatever else. Dawkins / Hitchins etc are perfectly entitled to object to the concept organised religion, or criticise specific ones; however I do think its a shame they have to be so deliberately derogatory and sensationalist when they do so, and I dislike the way (as the dawkins book quote shows) that much of it seems motivated by a "look at me" agenda, more than anything else.

The Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years, and will still be here when Dawkins is long dead. So (i) they must be doing something right, and (ii) I really wish Dawkins would just get a life and get on with what he is good at - scientific research. Wrt science, there is no doubt he is a brilliant man, with much to offer humanity.

I agree that dawkins/hitchins etc should be allowed to voice an opinion, but only a personal one. ..what happens if the pope starts saying that science on the whole is wrong ..for me religion and science are asking 2 different questions ..dawkins sees them as direct competitors, possibly in the fight to deliver 'reality' or 'world view' to the masses ...I would like to see his time spent more on teaching people properly about evolution and that includes the limitations on the knowledge ....disciples of dawkins tend to present his work as 'the answer' to where life/universe came from ..not only that, but most seem to believe that darwin discovered evolution, which is completely wrong .. of the people who believe in science as 'an explanation' it's quite scary how few actually know(without google) why Darwin is perceived to be important(not all believe he was) ...so this is where I think dawkins should be focusing his attention

ps

imagine if religion is a necessary part of human evolution, what kind of ego would rule this out completely(against all evidence) as part of some personal crusade...this person is not a scientist

[Arnold Layne]

Part two:

So when folks ask, as they do, "Do you believe in God, Arnold" I can only say that I am unable to answer the question since such an answer would require a mutually accepted definition of the term "God", and that I cannot give without shattering the vision, and reducing to the utterly inaccurate and stupid that which is ultimately "Mysterium tremens, et fascinans".

[sam-i-am]

Fantastic post Arnie

I can remember many years ago reading an essay by Aldous Huxley where he argued that faith and belief were incompatible, that constraining the divine with language was a barrier to knowing and I can kind of feel this coming through...

[Arnold Layne]

sam, your senses do you credit. Huxley taught me much, I learned to challenge the status quo and push open those doors of perception. "Heaven and Hell" saved my sanity at a time of spiritual crisis many years ago.

[ramblingmadman]

Fantastic post Arnie

I can remember many years ago reading an essay by Aldous Huxley where he argued that faith and belief were incompatible, that constraining the divine with language was a barrier to knowing and I can kind of feel this coming through...

Hi Sam ,

I wonder if you , or any of the readers of this thread might know the name of this essay.

I've enjoyed Huxley for many years , and would be very intereste to read the aforementioned essay.

Cheers

rm

[sam-i-am]

Fantastic post Arnie

I can remember many years ago reading an essay by Aldous Huxley where he argued that faith and belief were incompatible, that constraining the divine with language was a barrier to knowing and I can kind of feel this coming through...

Hi Sam ,

I wonder if you , or any of the readers of this thread might know the name of this essay.

I've enjoyed Huxley for many years , and would be very intereste to read the aforementioned essay.

Cheers

rm

Hi rm

I can't remember off the top of my head, I think it was in the collection titled "Do what you will" but I'll have a root round and see if I can dig it out later

[Michael Luchóg]

if ya saw god you'd be surprised - shes black!

thank god im an athiest!

[MickyJay4MaryJane]

talking of monster slayers ...richard dawkins ...last week was saying he was going to arrest the pope ..are we to believe richard has suddenly become concerned for children being attacked by pedophiles ..or is it more likely he's unashamedly using the victims to promote his own evangelical stance as an anti-religionist ..thats how I see these articles ...the way they are put together has nothing to do with protecting children ...a political/power football

One of Dawkins' ket objections to religion is the way children are indoctrinated into faith by their parents. To illustrate the point he lists: Jewish child, Muslim child, Catholic child, Protestant child, Communist child, Nazi child. Why are the last two any more shocking than the first four in this list?

In his book 'The God Delusion' he's written an entire chapter on this subject, so to accuse him of cynically cashing in on paedophilia is pretty sick.

But he neglects to inform that children of atheists are also indoctrinated into believing there is no god, also into believing that belief in god or faith in a higher power are signs of weakness and intellectual inferiority.

Dawkins will be the leader of the next inquisition

Even in the bible it says the Devil is the ruler of this world.

When popes were crowned, the following words were used:

Accipe tiaram tribus coronis ornatam, et scias te esse Patrem Principum et Regnum, Rectorem Orbis, in terra Vicarium Salvatoris Nostri Jesu Christi, cui est honor et gloria in sæcula sæculorum.

(Receive the tiara adorned with three crowns and know that thou art Father of Princes and Kings, Ruler of the World, Vicar of Our Savior Jesus Christ in earth, to whom is honor and glory in the ages of ages.)

Edited April 23, 2010 by MickyJay4MaryJane

[BudFan]

with lazy journalism tapping into both resentment of religion

Gee. I wonder why there is a resentment of religion?

Hey cowboy,

Well, im pretty sure it isnt to do with religious opinion on the quality of journalism! :wink:

:wink:

[BudFan]

Part two:

So when folks ask, as they do, "Do you believe in God, Arnold" I can only say that I am unable to answer the question since such an answer would require a mutually accepted definition of the term "God"

Entirely correct Arnie, and when people debate the matter, often they are really discussing their own concepts, rather than the actual likelihood of a "God" - which is completely distinct from our human concepts.

I disagree however that organised religions "aint worth a midges fart" () - religions of all types do a massive amount of charitable work, both officially and unofficially, and provide basic rights such as education, clothing, food, hope, financial support etc to untold millions, who would otherwise go without for various reasons. It's not fair to simply ignore that.

Example, article from 2007, from Director of the World Food Program:

---

"In a Jan. 15 private audience with Pope Benedict XVI, James Morris, World Food Program (WFP) executive director, praised the pontiff in a statement issued later that day for his “continuous personal commitment” to reducing the growing scourge of hunger.

“I wish to thank his holiness for his continuous personal commitment, as well as that of the Catholic Church, to the poor and desperate people in the world,” Morris said, who recalled the “extraordinary help provided to WFP worldwide by Catholic organizations.”

The food program works with numerous Catholic groups and organizations as partners, including member organizations of the Caritas Internationalis network, Catholic Relief Services, the Daughters of Charity, Jesuit Refugee Service, International Catholic Migration Commission and the Community of Sant’Egidio.

The World Food Program refers to itself as the world's largest humanitarian agency, offering food to an average of 90 million poor people to meet their nutritional needs, including 58 million hungry children, in at least 80 of the world's poorest countries".

----

But people prefer to see negative news stories (on all topics).

The above is an example of the true impact of the Catholic Church, instances of abuse are not. When over 1 in 5 people in the world are members of your organisation, odds are that you will get a few bad eggs (sadly).

Anyway, organisation is usually a good thing, when it comes to human endeavour.

I think Sam-i-am is correct when he says that "language constrains the divine", but unfortunately we have no other choice but to express ourselves via language, with its inherent limitations.

Edited April 23, 2010 by BudFan

[Arnold Layne]

I know Budfan mate, I worked for an Organised Religion most of my working life, got the dog collar to prove it!

But even the good works are often tainted.