Split from pedophile priest thread

[troy]

I'd be interested to know your position on these issues weed. Are you an atheist ?

[Cosmic Dick]

I could also say there is no good evidence for the existence of any "Gods", hence my lack of belief in any, thus my atheism - though, of course, there may be.

Woof

I too see no good evidence for the existance of God or gods, though, of course, there may be, thus my agnosticism.

My total lack of belief is in religions, these I am absolutely certain are poppycock, and none of their gods exist.

CD

[Hir]

Probably most know it happened over millions of years because gods don't exist.

You can't say this. Because you haven't looked everywhere. nobody has. All that can be said is that if there is a god then he might be responsible for all the evidence we have accrued that suggest there isn't a god. Perhaps he did bury the bones. Lets hope he is a prankster and has a sense of humour.

I don't believe most of what I just implied. Is there a god, don't know, does metaphysical stuff happen, yes all the time.

[HvyFuel]

Probably most know it happened over millions of years because gods don't exist.

You can't say this.

Yes I can, just did

I was talking about the hypothetical atheist though. My personal belief is that if a 'god' did exist it would so far beyond human comprehension as to be unknowable.

[Cosmic Dick]

Probably most know it happened over millions of years because gods don't exist.

You can't say this.

Yes I can, just did

I was talking about the hypothetical atheist though. My personal belief is that if a 'god' did exist it would so far beyond human comprehension as to be unknowable.

:wink:

And continuing on the hypothetical, remember the original pic, with the mountains?

Could they have happened suddenly?

CD

[BudFan]

In his book 'The God Delusion' he's written an entire chapter on this subject, so to accuse him of cynically cashing in on paedophilia is pretty sick.

In the "God Delusion", Dawkins also wrote:

"Priestly abuse of children is nowadays taken to mean sexual abuse, and I feel obliged, at the outset, to get the whole matter of sexual abuse into proportion and out of the way. Others have noted that we live in a time of hysteria about pedophilia, a mob psychology that calls to mind the Salem witch-hunts of 1692… All three of the boarding schools I attended employed teachers whose affections for small boys overstepped the bounds of propriety. That was indeed reprehensible. Nevertheless, if, fifty years on, they had been hounded by vigilantes or lawyers as no better than child murderers, I should have felt obliged to come to their defense, even as the victim of one of them (an embarrassing but otherwise harmless experience).

"The Roman Catholic Church has borne a heavy share of such retrospective opprobrium. For all sorts of reasons I dislike the Roman Catholic Church. But I dislike unfairness even more, and I can’t help wondering whether this one institution has been unfairly demonized over the issue, especially in Ireland and America… We should be aware of the remarkable power of the mind to concoct false memories, especially when abetted by unscrupulous therapists and mercenary lawyers. The psychologist Elizabeth Loftus has shown great courage, in the face of spiteful vested interests, in demonstrating how easy it is for people to concoct memories that are entirely false but which seem, to the victim, every bit as real as true memories. This is so counter-intuitive that juries are easily swayed by sincere but false testimony from witnesses.

(The God Delusion, pp. 315-16)

Not only does he say the church is being unfairly demonised wrt child abuse, but also suggests he would defend child abusers, alleges false testimony in some cases and also plays down the effects of abuse on the victims.

I must say, given that "God Delusion" was published only a few years ago (06 or 07 I think), his current stance shows a quite remarkable personal u-turn on the matter, especially since the cases being discussed occurred before "God Delusion" was published.

From wondering whether the church is unfairly demonised, to openly calling for the arrest of the Pope (a nonsensical and attention seeking stunt). Richard has certainly shifted on the issue.

My own opinion is that Richard likes attention, and has discovered that blurting anti-religious sentiment gets him more than does talking about science.

[troy]

I agree it does seem like a u turn. However in the light of recent events where there has been a deluge of accusations of abuse by catholic priests and evidence of a cover up by the current pope I'm not surprised he may want to highlight the fact that the church and its members don't seem to have to abide by the same laws that we ordinary mortals do.

[HvyFuel]

Probably most know it happened over millions of years because gods don't exist.

You can't say this.

Yes I can, just did

I was talking about the hypothetical atheist though. My personal belief is that if a 'god' did exist it would so far beyond human comprehension as to be unknowable.

And continuing on the hypothetical, remember the original pic, with the mountains?

Could they have happened suddenly?

CD

In human terms no. In planetary terms, where a couple of million years is sudden, yes.

2 million earth years is about 12 days of an 80 year human life.

Edited April 19, 2010 by HvyFuel

[Cosmic Dick]

And continuing on the hypothetical, remember the original pic, with the mountains?

Could they have happened suddenly?

CD

In human terms no. In planetary terms, where a couple of million years is sudden, yes.

2 million earth years is about 12 days of an 80 year human life.

So you are happy to ignore myths and legends?

CD

Edited April 19, 2010 by Cosmic Dick

[HvyFuel]

And continuing on the hypothetical, remember the original pic, with the mountains?

Could they have happened suddenly?

CD

In human terms no. In planetary terms, where a couple of million years is sudden, yes.

2 million earth years is about 12 days of an 80 year human life.

So you are happy to ignore myths and legends?

CD

Delighted.

[sam-i-am]

And continuing on the hypothetical, remember the original pic, with the mountains?

Could they have happened suddenly?

CD

In human terms no. In planetary terms, where a couple of million years is sudden, yes.

2 million earth years is about 12 days of an 80 year human life.

So you are happy to ignore myths and legends?

CD

Delighted.

[weed_G]

I'd be interested to know your position on these issues weed. Are you an atheist ?

just noticed your post, before I answer what would your guess be

In his book 'The God Delusion' he's written an entire chapter on this subject, so to accuse him of cynically cashing in on paedophilia is pretty sick.

In the "God Delusion", Dawkins also wrote:

"Priestly abuse of children is nowadays taken to mean sexual abuse, and I feel obliged, at the outset, to get the whole matter of sexual abuse into proportion and out of the way. Others have noted that we live in a time of hysteria about paedophilia, a mob psychology that calls to mind the Salem witch-hunts of 1692… All three of the boarding schools I attended employed teachers whose affections for small boys overstepped the bounds of propriety. That was indeed reprehensible. Nevertheless, if, fifty years on, they had been hounded by vigilantes or lawyers as no better than child murderers, I should have felt obliged to come to their defense, even as the victim of one of them (an embarrassing but otherwise harmless experience).

"The Roman Catholic Church has borne a heavy share of such retrospective opprobrium. For all sorts of reasons I dislike the Roman Catholic Church. But I dislike unfairness even more, and I can’t help wondering whether this one institution has been unfairly demonized over the issue, especially in Ireland and America… We should be aware of the remarkable power of the mind to concoct false memories, especially when abetted by unscrupulous therapists and mercenary lawyers. The psychologist Elizabeth Loftus has shown great courage, in the face of spiteful vested interests, in demonstrating how easy it is for people to concoct memories that are entirely false but which seem, to the victim, every bit as real as true memories. This is so counter-intuitive that juries are easily swayed by sincere but false testimony from witnesses.

(The God Delusion, pp. 315-16)

Not only does he say the church is being unfairly demonised wrt child abuse, but also suggests he would defend child abusers, alleges false testimony in some cases and also plays down the effects of abuse on the victims.

I must say, given that "God Delusion" was published only a few years ago (06 or 07 I think), his current stance shows a quite remarkable personal u-turn on the matter, especially since the cases being discussed occurred before "God Delusion" was published.

From wondering whether the church is unfairly demonised, to openly calling for the arrest of the Pope (a nonsensical and attention seeking stunt). Richard has certainly shifted on the issue.

My own opinion is that Richard likes attention, and has discovered that blurting anti-religious sentiment gets him more than does talking about science.

outstanding piece of research btw ..couldn't agree more on the bold at the end

I agree it does seem like a u turn. However in the light of recent events where there has been a deluge of accusations of abuse by catholic priests and evidence of a cover up by the current pope

it doesn't just seem like a u turn ..it is an actual u turn ..what new evidence has dawkins processed since then I wonder? ...sensationalist media isn't really evidence, or is it opportunity over evidenced ...you would be lucky to name one public institution that deals with kids, that hasn't had some scandal/cover-up or other ..did you read my 'boy scouts of America article' ? ..so again where is the evidence that the vatican is a kind of paedophile factory that needs closing down ...I mean as cold thinking scientists we need evidence first right?

---------------------------

for those who see/believe the passage of time, iow the notion of billions of years as an explanation for the existence of highly sophisticated and self-aware energy and the universe in general(as we perceive it) ...how does Time explain anything ?

[troy]

Hi weed , i wouldn't hazard a guess on your views. Evidence ? My answer to that would be : there is no smoke without fire. Why do you think the pope is visiting the victims of abuse ?

[weed_G]

My answer to that would be : there is no smoke without fire.

Why do you think the pope is visiting the victims of abuse ?

PR

[BudFan]

outstanding piece of research btw ..couldn't agree more on the bold at the end

Thanks! (it was published in various newspaper articles too, but no real surprise it has not been covered extensively by the mainstream media). Do note I entirely respect the right of people to hold whatever views they please, on religion or whatever else. Dawkins / Hitchins etc are perfectly entitled to object to the concept organised religion, or criticise specific ones; however I do think its a shame they have to be so deliberately derogatory and sensationalist when they do so, and I dislike the way (as the dawkins book quote shows) that much of it seems motivated by a "look at me" agenda, more than anything else.

The Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years, and will still be here when Dawkins is long dead. So (i) they must be doing something right, and (ii) I really wish Dawkins would just get a life and get on with what he is good at - scientific research. Wrt science, there is no doubt he is a brilliant man, with much to offer humanity.

Hi weed , i wouldn't hazard a guess on your views. Evidence ? My answer to that would be : there is no smoke without fire.

I agree, but the Church is not trying to say that no abuse took place; it has accepted both that- (i) members of its clergy (a miniscule minority), committed henious acts of abuse, and (ii) that the Church itself made very serious mistakes in the handling of these cases, and that victims of abuse had been failed by this.

Why do you think the pope is visiting the victims of abuse ?

To apologise to them for the failings mentioned above, and to try and engage in a spirit of reconciliation with them.

Really the whole thing has turned into something of a circus, with lazy journalism tapping into both resentment of religion, and (in the UK) the Catholic Church in particular.

The real sentiment behind the coverage / overt attacks is revealed when you consider that Benedict was meeting the abuse victims and promoting justice and reconciliation way, waaaay before this media circus; eg in Australia 2008 (two years ago!) he said :

"Here I would like to pause to acknowledge the shame which we have all felt as a result of the sexual abuse of minors by some clergy and religious in this country. I am deeply sorry for the pain and suffering the victims have endured and I assure them that, as their pastor, I too share in their suffering

Victims should receive compassion and care, and those responsible for these evils must be brought to justice. These misdeeds, which constitute so grave a betrayal of trust, deserve unequivocal condemnation. I ask all of you to support and assist your bishops, and to work together with them in combating this evil. It is an urgent priority to promote a safer and more wholesome environment, especially for young people."

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Youth_D..._and_Criticisms

And just to chuck in an outlandish conspiracy theory - A cynic might point the fact that this celebrity-led criticism and media storm (in the Uk at least) has come at a time when a sizable minority (anglo-catholics) of the Church of England were/are preparing to break from the Anglican communion to rejoin that of Rome, a move which would introduce chaos into the British constitutional system (given the loss of this traditionalist wing would ultimately shatter the remnants of the CoE - the established Church of England of which the Queen is the head - leaving Catholicism as the main Christian group in the nation, one which looked to Papacy spiritually and not the Royals. In addition, Northern Ireland may be inflamed by such an event)

Edited April 22, 2010 by BudFan