Split from pedophile priest thread

[HvyFuel]

Ok, fair enough, but if an atheist is a person who believes there is no God, what do you call someone with no religious beliefs whatsoever?

[weed_G]

no single word springs to mind hvy ..... 'free thinking' or 'thinking outside the box'

ummm ..what about this:

Existentialism is a term applied to the work of a number of 19th- and 20th-century philosophers who, despite profound doctrinal differences,[1][2] generally held that the focus of philosophical thought should be to deal with the conditions of existence of the individual person and their emotions, actions, responsibilities, and thoughts.[3][4] The early 19th century philosopher Søren Kierkegaard, posthumously regarded as the father of existentialism,[5][6] maintained that the individual is solely responsible for giving their own life meaning and living that life passionately and sincerely,[7][8] in spite of many existential obstacles and distractions including despair, angst, absurdity, alienation, and boredom.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism

[Boojum]

I guess I'd put that under the heading of agnosticism, if by no religious beliefs whatsoever that means neither an acceptance nor rejection of religion - if one neither believes nor disbelieves, one just doesn't even give it any consideration, if it is an irrelevance then I'd say that's agnosticism (I don't think agnosticism requires the idea that the answer to the question of the existence of God cannot be known, I think it can also include not asking the question in the first place). So I guess with the believe/disbelieve duality there is don't know, but there is also don't care. And I guess what differentiates between absence of belief and disbelief is the assertion "I do not believe.", it's that assertion which to me makes one an atheist, to say "I do not believe.", to say "I do not know." or "I do not care." or to just say nothing, that makes one an agnostic (in my understanding), and I'd say having no religious beliefs whatsoever comes under that heading.

Sorry, very long winded (as usual), just trying to express what's in my head, I hate it when you kinda have an idea about something but it just doesn't want to translate into actual language

[troy]

The term religious belief means belief in a god or deity so of you have no religious beliefs you are an atheist. If you think that you can't know whether god exists or not you are an agnostic. Atheism and Theism is about belief and Agnosticism is about knowledge so you can be both at the same time. Atheism is a lack of belief so requires no act of faith, only beliefs require faith. A belief requires that there is something to believe in, an idea or an entity so Atheism is neither of these.

ETA if you don't know whether you believe in god or not I would say you are an atheist as you don't believe he/she exists. If you think you can't know whether there is a god or not are an agnostic. Apologies for the sitting on the fence thing , I misunderstood Agnosticism.

Edited April 16, 2010 by troy

[weed_G]

troy if you don't mind me asking ..and you don't have to answer ..but do you consider yourself an atheist?

[Boojum]

Atheism is a lack of belief so requires no act of faith, only beliefs require faith. A belief requires that there is something to believe in, an idea or an entity so Atheism is neither of these.

That's the crux of the argument, and it's incorrect I'm afraid. Although the word atheist comes from the Greek root atheos (a- without theos God) and so semantically means simply without a God, in actuality the word atheist means a belief that there is no God, not simply an absence of belief. And, as I've said, a belief that there is no God is still a belief. An act of faith. Until such time as it is proven beyond all doubt that there is, indeed, no God. Believing there is no God is believing in an idea or entity - it is believing in the idea that there is no God.

E2A It is, like many areas dealing with this kind of thing, a case that the words we have are inadequate. Atheism should mean simply a lack of belief, a belief that there is no God should be called, I dunno, antitheism or something.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Boojum

[weed_G]

- it is believing in the idea that there is no God.

[troy]

troy if you don't mind me asking ..and you don't have to answer ..but do you consider yourself an atheist?

yes

[weed_G]

assuming it's not a complete act of faith, can you sketch out the reasoning/evidence you used to arrive at that conclusion

[troy]

Thats where we differ as you rightly said. Atheism means a lack of belief in god, not all atheists believe there is no god, this is a particular type of atheism. Does it require faith to not believe in the tooth fairy ? No of course not. Its a lack of belief, faith does not come into it. Faith of this kind is for those of a religious persuasion. Do you need proof that there is no tooth fairy, no, we accept it as grown up rational creatures. Its not for atheists to disprove the existence of god, the burden of proof is on those who claim it to be true. if god had never had been invented there would be no atheists.

[weed_G]

Does it require faith to not believe in the tooth fairy ?

are science and reason not required?

[skunker]

To not believe in something requires nothing

[weed_G]

can we have a real world example

[Boojum]

Thats where we differ as you rightly said. Atheism means a lack of belief in god, not all atheists believe there is no god, this is a particular type of atheism. Does it require faith to not believe in the tooth fairy ? No of course not. Its a lack of belief, faith does not come into it. Faith of this kind is for those of a religious persuasion. Do you need proof that there is no tooth fairy, no, we accept it as grown up rational creatures. Its not for atheists to disprove the existence of god, the burden of proof is on those who claim it to be true. if god had never had been invented there would be no atheists.

Of course it is a belief - it cannot be proven that God doesn't exist, therefore the assertion that God does not exist is a belief (and the burden of proof lies with anyone who believes anything, if they are challenged to prove it), if it is not a statement of fact (which it cannot be without proof) then it is a belief. Any assertion that cannot be proven is a belief. One can easily prove that the tooth fairy doesn't exist - leave a tooth under your pillow, if it's still there tomorrow then the tooth fairy doesn't exist (and that's a facile example, no adult believes in the tooth fairy, it's a story that was deliberately made up to ease the loss of milk teeth in kids). And sure, if there was no concept of God then atheism wouldn't be a belief, but because the notion of Gods exists it becomes one, the same is true for anything where there are two or more opposing views only one of which can be true, until one of them is proven true all the views are beliefs. An unopposed theory can be considered fact, but as soon as an opposing theory comes along, until one of them is proven correct, both of them are just opinions - beliefs. If something is not a statement of fact then it is a statement of opinion - a belief. A lot of atheists think that the non-existence of God is a fact, but until proven it is nothing of the sort, and thinking that it is demonstrates just how powerful a belief it is (and, in that respect, just how much like theism it is).

[sam-i-am]

God

Ok, fair enough, but if an atheist is a person who believes there is no God, what do you call someone with no religious beliefs whatsoever?