The Century Of The Self

[benbits]

Negative = all you can be within your own horizons. Positive = we will force you to be free within our horizons.

Other way round.

I am still unsure father perhaps I have been side tracked by the Berlin essay. So Labours policy of education x 3 is an example of negative freedom then?

e2a here is the definition I think:

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNZ28na7ksY&feature=related starts around 5 minute mark.

I'll stick with education x3 as an example of positive freedom in this context. Perhaps it is a bad example.

I've got the essay here in my hand. I'll take a few sentences from each part of the essay just to show an outline of the concept.

Negative: "Political liberty in this sense is simply the area within which a man can act unobstructed by others. If I am prevented by other persons from doing what I could otherwise do, I am to that degree unfree; and if this area is contracted by other men beyond a certain minimum, I can be described as being coerced, or, it may be, enslaved...

... Liberty in this sense means liberty from; absence of interference beyond the shifting, but always recognisable, frontier."

Positive: "The 'positive' sense of the word 'liberty' derives from the wish on part of the individual to be his own master. I wish my life and decisions to depend upon myself, not on external forces of whatever kind. I wish to be the instrument of my own, not of other men's, acts of will."

Sorry to be so brief, but go to go for now. About Blair's "education, education, education," I (personally – I'm not saying that it's wrong) wouldn't use that as an example, it seems too small a scope to apply to individual freedom. However, it depends on the way you look at that statement: Is it a. A lie – Did Blair actually believe it at all? And b. If it was true, whose education are we talking about? – Is it the education of the elite to discourage critical-thinking?

sure but my confusion arises from the defintion given in the link i gave (ie part of The Trap). more thinking required. thanks for your replies thus far.

Edited November 21, 2009 by benbits

[Father McPot]

Just watched that bit. Curtis is putting it in context. He is saying that positive liberty is not good for leaders (who believe that they know what 'true' freedom is) because the people get out of control and don't – from the leader's point of view, still – know what 'true' freedom is. The leaders force their version of what a human being should be on to the people via negative liberty. Positive liberty – according to Berlin – didn't and won't work because it holds that there is one universal answer to "human ills." And to obtain that answer, people will do absolutely anything for it – including murder. (Curtis doesn't agree with Berlin, by the way.)

[benbits]

Thanks father I have just finished the f u buddy section. Will post again if my confusion returns.

[Father McPot]

Probably best with google video (if you don't already use it) because you can watch the whole episode in one go, rather than in 5 or 6 parts (like with youtube).

[-=DrGreenThumb=-]

I watched the Century of Self a few years ago and thought it was a fantastic documentory! Highly recommended, it's all about how we were "engineered" to became addicted to consumerism!

[Scribb|e]

I like Adam Curtis's documentaries - they surprise me in how far down the rabbit hole they go for mainstream, 'respectable' productions - pretty much any other docus that touch on the same subjects just scratch the surface, reel out the party line or are just lies and misdirection (q.v. The (¿was it the BBC's?) 'conspiracy season' which had one about 9/11 and the '9/11 Truth Movement'. )

Anyhoo, what I really wanted to say was that if anyone wants to download these and any other Flash videos, you can do so using Firefox and the excellent Video DownloadHelper plugin.

The plugin allows you to not only download any video/mp3 that's on a web page, but also convert it on the fly into a variety of formats and also with YouTube/Google Video, it allows you to select the High/Medium quality versions if available.

For users with slow connections like dial-up who are sick of clicking on threads that are full of Flash video and pages with Flash ads/banners on them that slow the connection right down, using Firefox and the Flashblock plugin will sort that. It replaces any Flash objects on the page with 'Play' button, so that you can play Flash content if you wish to, otherwise it's not downloaded and rendered.

If anyone has any questions about it, feel free to ask.

[Father McPot]

Thanks, Scrib. Didn't know that. Going to d/l the plugin in a bit.

[benbits]

Maybe OT sorry if it is. I didn't want to start a new topic.

When I am presented with a new recent historical analysis, which presents unfamiliar ideas which seem valid to me, I then seem to see examples proving the analysis correct at almost every turn. Of course I reject those analysis which do not seem to me to have any validity. Examples:

Adam Curtis The Trap, this presents an analysis of recent political and cultural events in the UK. Based on Game Theory and the selfish calculating individual. Yesterday on the radio they were discussing the free market in the light of the recent downturn. Few if any it was stated still defend the view that markets always know best. Today I see a news story about how NHS staff are “fiddling waiting time figures”.

Any theistic view, I reject because I believe the fundamental principle to be false.

Is it a case of we are what we do or am I just too easy to influence? Your opinions please.

Edited November 24, 2009 by benbits

[Father McPot]

Is it a case of we are what we do or am I just too easy to influence? Your opinions please.

You're more likely to find coins on the street if you're actively looking for them, don't you think?

[benbits]

Is it a case of we are what we do or am I just too easy to influence? Your opinions please.

You're more likely to find coins on the street if you're actively looking for them, don't you think?

Yes! The worry is Curtis had to show me what a coin is. He has manufactured my new reality.

Edited November 25, 2009 by benbits

[Father McPot]

I know. That annoys me as well. — "Why didn't I think/know that already?!" Happens a lot.

[benbits]

Right I think I have managed to get my head around the Trap as Curtis sees it. The Trap is negative liberty as defined by Berlin.

Negative liberty is the freedom to be what you want to be and nothing else. It can be thought of as small government. It is the idea that one should be as free from coercion as is possible. “No ideals other than individuals desires and the freedom to indulge them”.

Positive Liberty is a concept which includes the strand that another knows how to make you more free. You are coerced to freedom. It can be thought of as big government. “We must force the people to be free”. We have an ideology for that purpose.

Curtis ends with a call for positive liberty. Do I have it right?

If I do this is indeed down the hole (scrib)

Edited November 26, 2009 by benbits

[Father McPot]

Negative liberty is the freedom to be what you want to be and nothing else. It can be thought of as small government. It is the idea that one should be as free from coercion as is possible. “No ideals other than individuals desires and the freedom to indulge them”.

Positive Liberty is a concept which includes the strand that another knows how to make you more free. You are coerced to freedom. It can be thought of as big government. “We must force the people to be free”. We have an ideology for that purpose.

You got the terms the wrong way around. Negative liberty is about allowing the people to do anything they like within the range you allow them to have. Picture it as a little bubble which surrounds every individual. They can do what they want within it but are not allowed to impinge upon another's bubble and vice versa. The bubble is your security (from coercion from others) and your limitation.

Here's the wiki page on the episode. And here's the page on the 2 concepts.

Curtis ends with a call for positive liberty. Do I have it right?

Edited November 26, 2009 by Father McPot

[synack]

Just on the downloading front, you can use Realplayer (free version) and this includes a `mouse over` video download which works nicely for almost all embedded video content.

[benbits]

Negative liberty is the freedom to be what you want to be and nothing else. It can be thought of as small government. It is the idea that one should be as free from coercion as is possible. “No ideals other than individuals desires and the freedom to indulge them”.

Positive Liberty is a concept which includes the strand that another knows how to make you more free. You are coerced to freedom. It can be thought of as big government. “We must force the people to be free”. We have an ideology for that purpose.

You got the terms the wrong way around. Negative liberty is about allowing the people to do anything they like within the range you allow them to have. Picture it as a little bubble which surrounds every individual. They can do what they want within it but are not allowed to impinge upon another's bubble and vice versa. The bubble is your security (from coercion from others) and your limitation.

Here's the wiki page on the episode. And here's the page on the 2 concepts.

Curtis ends with a call for positive liberty. Do I have it right?

Father I think it is you who may have the terms the wrong way around. It is important since the call is for positive liberty. Can you define the terms as Curtis is using them please? Perhaps you could tell me what you think Curtis is calling for that would help define the terms in question ( and context). It is a difficult area freedom.

Edited November 26, 2009 by benbits