Enlightenment

[Guest gunnaknow]

I've always had a fuzzy understanding of Enlightenment in general, what do you understand by it?

Cheers,

Rog.

The closest simple description would be emptiness, infinity or zero, Rog but try to understand that it's beyond perception and non-perception and therefore cannot be described. Through meditation one passes through eight distinct states of meditation, called the Jhanas, Rog. Each of the first four becoming successively more bare of mental formations. The last four of the eight are devoid of form, involving the perception of infinity and emptiness, before even perception and non perception cease. Enlightenment is the complete emptiness beyond this. Not literally beyond, as there is no place, no time, no mind, nor their opposites. The comprehension of enlightenment is to be found at the end of a circle. Hope this was helpful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupajhana

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arupajhana

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhana

Edited October 29, 2008 by gunnaknow

[Guest roger]

Thanks I'll do some reading on the links that you have posted.

A question, is the concept of enlightenment in that sense confined to religion?

[ninorc]

I don't know why there are so many statues of a chubby buddha.

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure that the 'chubby' one is the Chinese version.

In Theravada traditions, the Buddha is usually represented as slim and youthful. I've heard that the fat laughing Buddha was an invention of the Communist Chinese to represent the way that Lamas in Tibetan society grew fat on the backs of others' labour and were having a laugh at the expense of the peasants who served them. There's a couple of Tibetan sects - therefore, Mahayana - with centres near me and the Buddhas in their shrine rooms aren't fat and jolly, either.

[Guest gunnaknow]

Very interesting Ninorc. However, the fat laughing buddha is Budai, an interpretation of the predicted future Maitreya Buddha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budai

Edited October 29, 2008 by gunnaknow

[DtH]

The primary story that concerns Budai in Zen (Chán) is a short kōan. In it, Budai is said to travel giving candy to poor children, only asking a penny from Zen monks or lay practitioners he meets. One day a monk walks up to him and asks, "What is the meaning of Zen?" Budai drops his bag. "How does one realize Zen?" he continued. Budai then took up his bag and continued on his way.

[THC4METOO]

I don't know why there are so many statues of a chubby buddha.

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure that the 'chubby' one is the Chinese version. The Japanese and Indian ones look similar.

fucking more-ish that chinese food

[Guest dr rockster]

Enlightenment

Spain in another age. I was a small kid brought up in a very conservative Catholic environment. I used to watch my mother put all her money in a collection plate and then pretend to be busy whilst we ate because she didn't have enough money to feed all of us. One day I heard our priest passing by, and saw his bags with all the brandy he bought with the collection money.

In the animated version of my life story a lightbulb appears above my head at this point.

My lightbulb came on when the Catholic priest I questioned some points of theology on proceeded to show me the error of my ways

and fill me with God's love by beating the living fuck outta me!

Man,that light came on like a 1000 watter!

True enlightenment? A spiritual realisation of sorts?

[ninorc]

Very interesting Ninorc. However, the fat laughing buddha is Budai, an interpretation of the predicted future Maitreya Buddha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budai

Ah so, thanks for enlightening me.

I think it's important to remember that 'Buddha' is not a name, but a title meaning,'the enlightened one'. There were Buddhas before Gautama and there have been Buddhas since (I'm told). Therefore, enlightenment is not some supernatural state, but can be achieved by any mortal willing to do the work (though it may take more than one lifetime). While the exact nature of enlightenment may not be comprehensible to the unenlightened (hence the paradoxical Zen puzzles), the method by which Gautama achieved enlightenment at the age of 35 is known and he spent the remaining 45 years of his life teaching the technique and nothing else (I'm told). Therefore, a working definition of enlightenment is the ultimate consequence of assiduous practise of sila, samadhi and panna.

[Guest dr rockster]

Would it not be fairer to say that is one kind of enlightenment ninorc?

A knowingness or awareness of a spiritual reality or truth can be maybe reached by more than one path?

Edited November 2, 2008 by dr rockster

[Guest roger]

can you gain enlightenment and then lose it? If its a state of mind, can it be replicated synthetically?

Edited November 2, 2008 by roger

[cf]

i had the privilege to see mr krishnamurti speak in madras before he died, he has plenty to say on the subject of enlightenment and he says it without using too many long words.

Edited November 2, 2008 by cf

[ninorc]

Would it not be fairer to say that is one kind of enlightenment ninorc?

A knowingness or awareness of a spiritual reality or truth can be maybe reached by more than one path?

I suspect there's only one kind of enlightenment, although it may be reached by more than one path. I'm not expert, but if you compare the teachings of all enlightened beings, don't they all say substantially the same thing?

It's important to differentiate between the teaching of - say - Jesus and Christianity. Jesus wasn't a Christian: he was Jewish. Nor was Gautama a Buddhist: the ism came later, when lesser beings attempted to codify the sutras. The most important thing that Krishnamurti says in the video, above, is that no one else can make you enlightened. You have to do it for yourself.

can you gain enlightenment and then lose it? If its a state of mind, can it be replicated synthetically?

No, you can gain insight, but forget it when the drugs wear off.

[Guest roger]

Is enlightenment objective or subjective?

[ninorc]

Is enlightenment objective or subjective?

Objective, in the sense that if you go round telling people you're enlightened, they'll just think you're a big head. Another working definition of enlightenment is to overcome the dictates of Ego. Other people have to perceive enlightened individuals as such and - I think - their salient characteristic is compassion (whatever that is!).

[Guest roger]

So you have to be perceived to be enlightened, to be so?