The Atheism Thread

[ratdog]

I back my statements up with hard facts. What is the difference between you and an ignoramus?

I don`t see many `hard facts` A, just aggression and a willingness to argue.

If you've a leg in the deists camp you probably wouldn't recognize a hard fact if it bit you on the ass. Wooly headed thinking and obscurantist claptrap are the stock in trade of the god squad. They can't abide hard facts. Thats why some schools in the USA have tried to ban the teaching of evolutionary theory. And that's a fact.

Me? In the God squad?

:rofl: :rofl:

I believe that Charles Darwin was a brilliant scientist and that his evolutionary theories are correct.

I totally agree but no point calling people names mate,it`s childish

Edited September 16, 2009 by ratdog

[Alf4lf4]

gravity, same force that edit: could have made it condense into a singularity for it to explode in the first place

Oh right I thought the big crunch theory had allreday been discounted due to garvity being such a weak force when compared to the other basic forces and the theoretical application of dark energy I'm more minded to the big rip theory my self where expasion keeps accelerating up to the point where even the sub atomic particle's eventually seperate from each other in to the cold empty vacuum of space with infinite distance between them

e2a Ignostic

This is the sort of stuff thats far too scarce on this thread. Heres a question to help things along. I accept that gravity is the weakest of the basic forces, but are the other forces acting to counteract its effect and prevent the big crunch?

[ratdog]

Do you mean dark matter as well?

[Alf4lf4]

Do you mean dark matter as well?

My understanding is that dark matter tips the scales. It means that there is too much matter in the universe for gravity to overcome and drag it all back for another big crunch.

[weed_G]

I'm more minded to the big rip theory my self where expasion keeps accelerating up to the point where even the sub atomic particle's eventually seperate from each other in to the cold empty vacuum of space with infinite distance between them

does that mean the current expansion is a unique or 'once only' type event

My concern is that this thread has members of the god squad all over it like a hedgehog has fleas. They wrap up their theist ideas in verbal diarrhea and try to pretend that they are making valid points. They hate scientific facts; religion has always feared science and always will.

I'v just read back through the thread, who are you talking about?

It means that there is too much matter in the universe for gravity to overcome

isnt the total energy/matter in the universe always the same or constant?

[sam-i-am]

Edited September 16, 2009 by sam-i-am

[groovelick]

No dark matter is needed to balance out gravity on a galactic scale

As for it being a unique event that depends on if you belive in a singular universe as a opposed to a multi-verse and string theory with the 9 dimensions whats need to balance the equation is an understanding of what affects dark engery has.

[Arnold Layne]

If you've a leg in the deists camp you probably wouldn't recognize a hard fact if it bit you on the ass. Wooly headed thinking and obscurantist claptrap are the stock in trade of the god squad. They can't abide hard facts.

Not all of us belong to fundamentalist american sects Alf. And as you are clearly unaware of modern theological thought, I would tone down the personal insults if I were you. They make you look foolish, rude and abusive.

The ranks of the Christian Church around the globe are rife with scientists of every hue. To paint them all with a fundamentalist brush, is not only to do them a mis-service, it is to reveal your ignorance of the modern Christian scene.

Alf4lf4, we know you don't believe in god, so what do you believe in?

I believe that Charles Darwin was a brilliant scientist and that his evolutionary theories are correct.

Faith indeed!

I believe Darwin was a genius, and that his theories have a certain element of truth in them, the precise degree of said truthfuness being under constant review by contemporary scientific minds.

I also believe that to say they "are correct" is to place a dogma where there should be no more than an argument or a suggestion. Certainty like that is so unscientific, don't you think?

My (Christian) understanding of the universe is not shaken or threatened in any way by evolutionary theories and facts. Nor by Quantum or Chaos.

When it comes to understanding the universe, I find Marcus Chown emminently readable and pursuasive. Try "The Universe next Door". By the way, he is not a theologian or religious man (to my kowledge). He is a scientist.

Edited September 17, 2009 by Arnold Layne
Accuracy

[weed_G]

hi,

No dark matter is needed to balance out gravity on a galactic scale

dark matter

'is hypothetical matter that is undetectable by its emitted radiation, but whose presence can be inferred from gravitational effects on visible matter'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter

hmmn ..a little sketchy, it hasn't been directly observed or measured ...could it be making up the deficit, from our failure to fully understand the 'gravitational effects on visible matter'

As for it being a unique event that depends on if you belive in a singular universe as a opposed to a multi-verse and string theory with the 9 dimensions whats need to balance the equation is an understanding of what affects dark engery has.

a single universe with infinite space and constant matter/mass/energy makes more sense to me, the problem with parallel universes, it would invalidate the first law of thermodynamics as well as some of Einsteins main theories on mass, fair game if you can prove it?

'The first law of thermodynamics, which mandates conservation of energy, and states in particular that heat is a form of energy.'

The law of conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy in a closed system remains constant. A consequence of this law is that energy cannot be created nor destroyed. The only thing that can happen with energy in a closed system is that it can change form, for instance kinetic energy can become thermal energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

new dimensions are one thing, they would still exist within the singular universe ..but extra universes seems a bit of a leap ..again there is no basic proof ..surely it's more probable we are just being blind to some things in our own universe ..iow outside the range of our senses/instruments

One such unique prediction is string harmonics: at sufficiently high energies—probably near the quantum gravity scale—the string-like nature of particles would become obvious. There should be heavier copies of all particles corresponding to higher vibrational states of the string. But it is not clear how high these energies are. In the most likely case, they would be 1015 times higher than those accessible in the newest particle accelerator, the LHC, making this prediction impossible to test with a particle accelerator in the foreseeable future.

Swampland

In response to these concerns, Cumrun Vafa and others have challenged the idea that string theory is compatible with anything. They propose that most possible theories of low energy physics lie in the swampland. The swampland is the collection of theories which could be true if gravity wasn't an issue, but which are not compatible with string theory. An example of a theory in the swampland is quantum electrodynamics in the limit of very small electron charge. This limit is perfectly fine in quantum field theory — in fact, in this limit, the perturbation theory becomes better and better. But in string theory, at the moment the charge of the lightest charged particle becomes less than the mass in natural units, the theory becomes inconsistent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory#Swampland

Although....

Higgs Boson

The Higgs Boson is a very small particle, much smaller than anything a person could see without special tools. Compared to other particles, the Higgs Boson is very large, which makes it difficult to detect with the tools that we use. In order to help explain how the universe works, scientists have suggested that it must exist, so it is important for scientists to find.

The Large Hadron Collider is the tool that scientists are using to find the Higgs Boson. The collider will have so much energy that it will be able to smack these particles into existence, since Einstein proved that matter can be made from energy. But since the Higgs is so massive, it takes a lot of energy to create one. Once the LHC is working again, we will start pumping some energy into the protons that spin around in it and hopefully we will see this particle.

The Higgs Boson is the only particle not yet seen that is predicted by the Standard Model. It is also known as the "God particle." Because the Large Hadron Collider at CERN is currently broken, and will take some time to fix, scientists in the USA have claimed that they may find the Higgs Boson first. Scientists think that this particle creates a sort of "field" everywhere, and this field will grab onto other particles, giving them mass, which is why some particles can go the speed of light like Photons and some cannot, like Protons. If the Higgs does not exist, then it will require an entire rewrite of physics.

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_Boson

I'm thinking of the best way to start an internet rumor that the LHC is not broken, instead it proved the higgs boson does not exist ...and the scientists are manically doing a complete rewrite of physics

Edited September 17, 2009 by weed_G

[weed_G]

Albert Einstein

"Man tries to make for himself in the fashion that suits in best a

simplified and intelligible picture of the world. He then tries to some

extent to substitute this cosmos of his for the world of experience, and

thus overcome it... He makes this cosmos and its construction the

pivot of his emotional life in order to find in this way the peace and

serenity which he cannot find in the narrow whirlpool of personal

experience. ... The supreme task ... is to arrive at those universal

elementary laws from which the cosmos can be built up by pure

deduction. There is no logical path to these laws; only intuition,

resting on sympathetic understanding of experience, can reach

them...."

Robert M. Pirsig -- 'Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'

"[...] the laws of science contain no matter and have no energy either

and therefore do not exist except in people's mind"

[groovelick]

How can a single universe with infinite space and constant matter/mass/energy comply with

QUOTE

'The first law of thermodynamics, which mandates conservation of energy, and states in particular that heat is a form of energy.'

The law of conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy in a CLOSED LOOP SYSTEM remains constant. A consequence of this law is that energy cannot be created nor destroyed. The only thing that can happen with energy in a closed system is that it can change form, for instance kinetic energy can become thermal energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

How can infinity exist in a closed loop system.

[weed_G]

How can infinity exist in a closed loop system.

'a single universe with infinite space and constant matter/mass/energy'

[weed_G]

no guarantee that's the case, but if its not then it raises more questions than it answers ..'energy/matter cannot be created or destroyed only transferred from one energy type to another without loss' ..for this to be valid it requires matter/energy in the universe to be a finite/constant ..if it's not, then it implies that energy/matter can appear from nowhere and vanishes into nothing ...

'Thanks to Einstein's famous equation E = mc2, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle also implies that particles can flit into and out of existence, their duration dictated only by their mass. This leads to the astonishing realisation that all around us "virtual" subatomic particles are perpetually popping up out of nothing, and then disappearing again within about 10-23 seconds. '

[groovelick]

But I like the how to start a rumor bit that the LHC did work and proved that the Higg's boson does not exist shhhhh dont tell Mr cocofibre

[weed_G]

he's so the man to deploy such a rumour