The Atheism Thread

[weed_G]

sure, but you didn't do the tests yourself ratdog ...your still taking people on their word even if it is x10 ..If 10 different religions say god exists does that mean god exists? ..sure their high priests can come forward and tell me stories about their visions of god and angels etc ...but unless I actually observe those things for myself ..If I choose to believe them it's blind faith ..unless of course I have my own vision/experience ..my point being is understanding dna science is outwith the skills of the vast majority of people ..and testing is way beyond that again ..for dna and most other sciences the vast majority of people take the scientists purely on their word

[weed_G]

obviously you have to have some faith just to get by day to day, you can't learn everything! but at least when questioned a scientist will show you the evidence whether or not you understand it, and will try and give you an explanation in laymens terms.

that's true, but if you dont understand or even make some tests yourself ..your still left taking their word for it

a religious man will just say, here's a book of stories put together by a roman emperor several hundred years ago, compiled of stories written thousands of years ago, believe it.

a christian man might say that ..but just because a cowboy electrician comes to your home and installs faulty electrics, that doesnt mean all electricians are cowboys or that somehow V = IR is invalid

and then 10 other religious men will give you 10 other totally different stories, then they'll all argue about which one's right,

true, but 'and then 10 other scientists will give you 10 other totally different stories, then they'll all argue about which one's right,' is equally true ..global warming being just one example

then they'll kill eachother

all the biggest 'killing' societies are science based ...starting with the u.s. ..the developed nations aren't waging religious wars ..theirs is a material/resources war ...the objectives are pure materialism/science ..mostly scientific material ...using scientific tools to commit mass killing ..im sure you get the picture

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there are plenty of religions that offer direct evidence, a good starting point for reading would be huxley's 'doors of perception' , then Carlos Castaneda's 'The Teachings of don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge' and then re-read 'doors of perception' again ....by which point you will know how to access the proof you require ..

Edited September 13, 2009 by weed_G

[scraglor]

so you're trying to argue you have genuine evidence of the existence/non existence of god? i've heard it all now lol the only access i or anyone has to such proof is through death

Edited September 13, 2009 by scraglor

[weed_G]

where did I say that

[scraglor]

wars haven't been started over the argument of whether or not a scientific theory is correct, and there's a religious war on our own fucking doorstep, ever heard of a little place called ireland?

where did I say that:

by which point you will know how to access the proof you require ..

Edited September 13, 2009 by scraglor

[weed_G]

wars haven't been started over the argument of whether or not a scientific theory is correct,

how many notable wars have we had in recent times over religious theory

and there's a religious war on our own fucking doorstep, ever heard of a little place called ireland?

the war in Ireland is easily traced to being a colony of the English empire ..and them flooding the north of ireland with english people to maintain control of a rowdy population ...which caused a polarization ..a civil war if you like between irish Catholics and English protestants which over time became irish Catholics against irish Protestants ..as intended...this can easily be checked by looking at the concessions made to Sinn Féin they were all political not religious

by which point you will know how to access the proof you require ..

does not equal..

trying to argue you have genuine evidence of the existence/non existence of god

all I'm saying is read the books, and make your own mind up

[ratdog]

..If 10 different religions say god exists does that mean god exists?

And what test is that then?

[scraglor]

wars haven't been started over the argument of whether or not a scientific theory is correct,

how many notable wars have we had in recent times over religious theory

the war may have been started for political reasons, all wars are, the people who start wars no doubt don't give a monkeys about religion, they're using it as a tool. but at the end of the day, people who are doing the actual fighting are often doing it in the name of religion, irish catholics/protestants, killing other irish people simply for the fact that they follow a different religious theory.

i'd say quite the majority of wars have at least a religious element, religion is used as a reason to justify the killing of other human beings. religion is a hoax, as for the existence of god, i don't doubt it, nor do i believe there is.it's an unanswerable question, hence it's opposition to science, your attempts to compare science and religion are flawed as you well know. sure they share similarities, your point about believing scientists being an act of faith, but i'm pretty sure everyone knows that your arguments for the two being the same were a crock

Edited September 13, 2009 by scraglor

[Eddiesilence]

wars haven't been started over the argument of whether or not a scientific theory is correct,

how many notable wars have we had in recent times over religious theory

the war may have been started for political reasons, all wars are, the people who start wars no doubt don't give a monkeys about religion, they're using it as a tool. but at the end of the day, people who are doing the actual fighting are often doing it in the name of religion, irish catholics/protestants, killing other irish people simply for the fact that they follow a different religious theory.

I dunno about the Irish example; compared to the Official IRA, the Provos distanced themselves from Catholicism. The Troubles were not about religion, but oppression and inequality. The subjects of inequality happened to be Catholics, for the most part, but their resistance was against real-world violent oppression rather than a fight inspired by their religion.

i'd say quite the majority of wars have at least a religious element, religion is used as a reason to justify the killing of other human beings.

Yes, perhaps an element of religion, but it's not usually causal in my view. To my mind religion provides an ostensible justification for warfare, but it isn't the reason.

Religion can be conveniently invoked to mask the real reasons for warfare, which include territorial acquisition, securing resources, capturing markets, deposing 'disobedient' rulers, self-defence, etc.

[ratdog]

Religion can be conveniently invoked to mask the real reasons for warfare

I always thought that`s why it was invented in the first place.

[scraglor]

Yes, perhaps an element of religion, but it's not usually causal in my view. To my mind religion provides an ostensible justification for warfare, but it isn't the reason.

Religion can be conveniently invoked to mask the real reasons for warfare, which include territorial acquisition, securing resources, capturing markets, deposing 'disobedient' rulers, self-defence, etc.

that's the point i was trying to make, it's used as a weapon, although science is used to create weapons, so i guess in that respect both institutions are as bad as each other, well at least the way they are used.

[Guest grandad]

visions after ingeting drugs. imagine early man finding god like visions after ingesting shroom and ganja. and the story unfolds thereafter.

[Eddiesilence]

Religion can be conveniently invoked to mask the real reasons for warfare

I always thought that`s why it was invented in the first place.

P'raps it was - religion is much cheaper than a secular army.

Either we pay professional soldiers, or we convince them they'll get paid in the afterlife!

[weed_G]

i'd say quite the majority of wars have at least a religious element, religion is used as a reason to justify the killing of other human beings.

that's different from the point you made , which was wars start because of religious theory ...or rather wars dont start over science theory ..implying that they do start over religious ones ..yes religion is used ..but as you correctly point out so is science ....Darwinism was used for decades by the conservative elements in the empire to justify oppression and slavery of other countries ..saying it was 'survival of the fittest' etc ''like somehow what they were doing was perfectly natural ..the oil wars we are currently going through are wholly science wars ..oil is a scientific commodity not a sacrament

religion is a hoax,

as you haven't looked into them all that's blind faith, more religions have been forgotten than you have currently heard off

as for the existence of god, i don't doubt it, nor do i believe there is.it's an unanswerable question,

agree

hence it's opposition to science,

there is no practical reason for opposition between the two ..science deals with the how's ..describes the mechanics etc ..religion deals with the why's ..that's why some scientists are religious and believe in god

your attempts to compare science and religion are flawed as you well know. sure they share similarities, your point about believing scientists being an act of faith, but i'm pretty sure everyone knows that your arguments for the two being the same were a crock

if its a crock, it will be easiy for you to demonstrate why that's the case ..I'm not certain why you didn't do that already...you can scroll back and quote whatever I said on the subject ..and then explain why its wrong .. ..or are we just to take your word for it that its bollocks?

And what test is that then?

the test is irrelevant, the point being made ..is you only get told the results ...therefore believing is a leap of faith ..or blind faith ...you have no transparent view of how the results or conclusions came around ..or even understand the science properly so what else could it be

Edited September 13, 2009 by weed_G

[ratdog]

therefore believing is a leap of faith

Not really as it`s only a 50/50 chance of the test being correct in the first place so not to many avenues to check out to explore truths.