Blayz'd Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I saw a thread earlier about a program on conciousness. So I watched it. On there they had a self awareness test using a mirror. He said that chimps, orang-outangs and humans all recognised they were that image. Although loads of other animals couldn't. I don't suppose he tested sea creatures. I would think the same applies for some. The ones whe deem to be intelligent I guess. There's a problem with it though. Cats. They seem to be instinct driven. So what leads them to killing things for fun? I find it quite strange. That we can consider many points of view, we can imagine from our own perspective and others. We have thought which fills our minds with regrets and feelings about things we've done. I don't suppose many of these instinctive animals which tend not to kill for fun have this facility. So really it should be the other way around. The animals which feel nothing or think very little about anything other than now should be the ones killing for fun. It makes little sense that we have a certain ability to punish ourselfs and yet our actions as species are extremely questionable compared to most. I find it really interesting that as a species of animal can become more intelligent, they can become more brutal. Humans seem to be the worst of the bunch but the most capable of conscious thoughts I think it's quite clear why animals kill. There are main reasons for all. To protect their own life or the lives of their young. In defence, to survive, and to get chicks . They seem to be the agendas of a large percentage of animals as far as killing. I think cats kill for fun, but they're playing. For some reason they kick into predator mode and love to hunt anything that moves. Humans seem to have a mixture. Some of the reasons we kill come directly through our thinking and emotions. I wouldn't like to admit it but I would guess a large percentage of the killing we do is through thinking or emotions, not because we have to in order to survive or defend. Which may explain why as a species becomes more conscious and more intelligent. It will keep doing more and more unnecessary damage until it learns any better. We haven't learned any better. I think this cycle of civilisations will carry on as long as we don't learn. We can't control our thoughts or emotions, we can't control ourselves. Interesting stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boojum Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Cats can grow up with a 'prey animal' like a hamster and some will eventually kill it, but many won't. That opens a whole new door on this bit of the discussion. The cat is choosing not to kill the prey animal even though its instinct says kill... I think I need a smoke, my head is now officially in bits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbuscule Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Yeah, there was a thing on Autumnwatch last night about species cooperating in unexpected ways - a Barn Owl and (I think) a Kestrel sharing the same box. There was a discernible reason for this apparent anomaly (shortage of nesting spots) but the bird-people found it astonishing. Chris Packham looked really baffled and Kate Humble just ranted about chocolate (the presenters' menagerie has started developing in wierd directions without the lesser-spotted grumpy Oddie ) Back sort of on-topic (I think ). It'd be nice to have a simple reductionist account of why kill (food, competition for mates etc) but life seems perversely complex, throwing up exceptions to pretty well every rule Gotta love it, life - it hurts and it makes no sense but anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blayz'd Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Yeah it is complex. It's hard to single out anything. Especially when you throw personalities in. Even though some animals tend to kill, maybe their differences in personalities decides whether they do or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest grandad Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 we have a brain that stores our thoughts, minds or soul, whatever you might call it, maybe one day brain transfer will be possible, bu to transfer whats inside the brain. very funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) Blayz'd : Even housecats are similar in their actions. They like to kill stuff for amusement. Booj: But troops of male chimpanzees have been observed to just kill, for what appears to be sport (they kill smaller monkeys, but they don't always eat them, sometimes they just throw the corpse around) Blayz'd: Cats. They seem to be instinct driven. So what leads them to killing things for fun? I think cats kill for fun, but they're playing. For some reason they kick into predator mode and love to hunt anything that moves Arbuscule: There was a discernible reason for this apparent anomaly (shortage of nesting spots) but the bird-people found it astonishing. I think the reason cats kill for "fun" has a survival benefit they are practicing the hunt. Are the monkeys doing the same? Blayz'd: Yeah it is complex. It's hard to single out anything. Especially when you throw personalities in. Even though some animals tend to kill, maybe their differences in personalities decides whether they do or not. Animals also seem to be a product of their experiences/environment so I think your right their “personalities” must play a huge role. grandad: we have a brain that stores our thoughts, minds or soul, whatever you might call it, maybe one day brain transfer will be possible, bu to transfer whats inside the brain..gif very funny. Sorry not sure what you mean grandad. The above statement seems confused. Can you explain please. Blayz’d: We can't control our thoughts or emotions, we can't control ourselves. Speak for yourself mate. Edited October 21, 2009 by stickybackplastic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hostile Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I disagree man. Cats for one are the same. I saw a bobcat on youtube a while back which found a venomous snake. The bobcat beat the snake to death and then wandered off without eating it. There's the point that the snake was venomous and he was killing it so he didn't have to worry about getting had by it. I doubt this was the case though. Even housecats are similar in their actions. They like to kill stuff for amusement. So if we're like it, and cats are like it. There's gonna be others. That's true, other animals kill without any necessity, but I meant to say that they don't have the intelligence to ask why they're doing something. We're the ones who are capable of rationalising our actions. That's more my point. And again, I should've come up with a better example than killing; there's a lot more to us all than just killing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boojum Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) People used to claim that, for want of a better word, altruism was a strictly human trait (especially followers of those religions that seek to make a distinction between humanity and the rest of the animal world), but that has been proven to be false. Animals display altruism (ie doing something for another with no reward in return), in fact altruism can be argued to be a survival trait. Perhaps the real trait that is strictly human is cruelty, doing something that harms another, knowing full well that it harms another, for no other reason than because you feel like it. Edited October 21, 2009 by Boojum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky5 Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 i'm a very simple person with only a primary school education, i'm not religious or spiritual because i believe in neither, only educated people think there inteligence and spirituality is above the masses, in simple terms its just a load of educated bollocks. Im with you grandad,who tought the first teachers any way(you dont know what you havent been taught) They are just passing on second hand info. there is only one universal law God,s law. every creature obeys it apart from us that is what makes humans different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boojum Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) But there is a HUGE gulf of difference between intelligence and education. Many of the most intelligent people I've ever known have had little or no education, while many of the biggest idiots I've known have had qualifications coming out of every orifice. I said something similar a while ago, you can have all the educational qualifications in the world, it doesn't mean that you know the difference between your arse and a hole in the ground. Perhaps intelligent people who believe in what they are being taught succeed more in education than less intelligent folks, but success in education doesn't necessarily mean that one is intelligent (and lack of such doesn't necessarily meant that you're not intelligent). Success in education just means that you're good at the particular form of education we have. Edited October 21, 2009 by Boojum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky5 Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 But there is a HUGE gulf of difference between intelligence and education. Many of the most intelligent people I've ever known have had little or no education, while many of the biggest idiots I've known have had qualifications coming out of every orifice. I said something similar a while ago, you can have all the educational qualifications in the world, it doesn't mean that you know the difference between your arse and a hole in the ground. I think its called common sense,Gods voice guiding you some people are close to his voice some are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hir Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I think the Mind Transfer market has got totally out of hand. Wayne Rooney got quoted 45 million to get Jade Goodies mind, well she wasn't using it, god bless her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boojum Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I think its called common sense,Gods voice guiding yousome people are close to his voice some are not. Dunno where God comes into it, really. I have been told that I'm reasonably intelligent, but I'm an atheist. I think intelligence is the ability to use the information you are presented with in an efficient manner to reach your own conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky5 Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Dunno where God comes into it, really. I have been told that I'm reasonably intelligent, but I'm an atheist. I think intelligence is the ability to use the information you are presented with in an efficient manner to reach your own conclusions. What good will intellgence do us when we are dead or common sense, we have to use it now whilst still alive to cut through all the made up bull . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hir Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I've heard Daisy from the local dairy herd uses make up, but it's the first gender bender bull I've heard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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