Trichoderma Harzianum & Vesicular Arbuscular Mycorrhizas

[Felix Dzerzhinsky]

Hi FH,

I put less seaweed meal and a lot less pelleted chicken manure into my compost mix, I think the larger rootmass is able to absorb nutrients far more efficiently with Mycorrhizal partners.

[Arnold Layne]

Interesting, Felix. I'm no scientist like yourself, so my observations are somewhat irregular ... but ... I have noticed that in Innoculated pots there is a sudden switch from plants showing signs of over-nuting, to plants being "hungry"; then showing a nute-burn response as soon as fed! They do seem much more food responsive, and it can be a task and a half to keep on top of things IME. But this is also strain specific I think.

[Felix Dzerzhinsky]

Sorry Arnold I'm just a humble Network Admin with a geeky interest in Fungi , Amanita will likely know a whole lot more than me

Yes, I've seen that response as well and in some plants (mostly full on sats or sat dom hybrids) I also see a drooping of the leaves 3 - 7 days after inoculating at potting up, virtually never happens with Indicas. That would back up your observations with it being strain specific.

Rather than adding the inoculant to the new hole at potting up time I'm now sprinkling the inoculant directly onto the side of the rootball so it comes into contact with the roots immediately, a quick spray of water to help the powder stick to the root ball and then sprinkle some on. Switched to doing it this way because I remember Amanita saying that when the spores germinate the hyphea sent out only grow for very short distances and must find a root to bond to quickly.

This is purely speculation and I expect to end up with egg all over my face when a real expert turns around and says this is rubbish but I'm thinking that during the initial infection stage of the roots by the mycorrhizal fungi their capacity to absorb nutrients and water is degraded before having that capacity then boosted by the expanding hyphal network. Hence the wilting & starvation followed by overfeeding . Does that sound reasonable ?

Are you using the red granules or RootGrow ? The reason I ask is I generally don't observe this response with rootgrow just the red granules, or if it is there when using RootGrow it's far less pronounced. However the granules seem to give much better results than RootGrow, perhaps due to the Trichoderma species and additional bacteria present in the granules ?

[I Zimbra]

good thread this! I also run the risk of egg on my face with what I'm going to add but who cares I like eggs!!

here goes... I'm thinking that when growing in an organic soil mix you are infact feeding the soil life which inturn feed the plant which then returns the favour and gives back to the soil, or something like that. I think that perhaps the soil which is experiencing these problems probably has a high level of microbial activity and when fed goes nuts and competes for the oxigen in the soil, which gets used up causing an imbalance in the soil, the plant is then all out sync can't use the nutes avalible to it as they would like.

any sense in that do you think or am I talking bollocks again

[Felix Dzerzhinsky]

I remember a fact from some of the reading for this thread that in grassland upto 40% of the grasses sugars produced by photosynthesis are supplied to their mycorrhizal partners in return for the minerals the fungi are able to take up from the soil.

I'm not sure if the bacteria and fungi in the inoculant powder will compete with the roots as they have evolved to work in symbiosis with the them but can't say for sure. Perhaps if the compost was populated with other bacteria then you might get some sort of competition scenario when nutrients were added, would be interesting to know for sure.

[BluePixie]

Interesting, Felix. I'm no scientist like yourself, so my observations are somewhat irregular ... but ... I have noticed that in Innoculated pots there is a sudden switch from plants showing signs of over-nuting, to plants being "hungry"; then showing a nute-burn response as soon as fed! They do seem much more food responsive, and it can be a task and a half to keep on top of things IME. But this is also strain specific I think.

Hi guys + gals,

Very limited experience and probably not too good at reading me plants but have grown out the same NL x Shiva clone a few times now, and the most recent grows with both rootgrow and rockdust and been by far the healthiest looking (previous grows showed some deficiencies which in retrospect I think were probably Mg) More relevantly nute requirements seem to be about 50% of my previous non inocculated attempts, with any dosages higher than about .5ml/ltr of grow, and 1.5ml/ltr of bloom resulting in clawing and tip burn the next day. Feeding every 4/5 days on wet'dry cycle, current compost is JAB + JI

SBP.

[I Zimbra]

I don't know if the bacteria and fungi compete with the roots, I wouldn't have thought so..but you never know. What I meant was that they will be competing for the oxigen in the soil, like when brewing a compost tea the compost needs a good airing in order to stimulate micro life, if too much... Say molasses were to be used then the bacteria grows to quickly and uses up all the avalible oxigen. I'm thinking that maybe a similar thing is happening in the soil when these microbes get fed.... They go nuts a gorge themselves, use up the oxigen and go back to sleep, all the while the plant is saying "what about me! You gutsy bastards! You move in here use up all my air and go to sleep without asking me if I might like some fucking oxygen!!" or ofcourse I'm completely wrong but its food for thought aye

actually second thoughts.... That probably is bollocks

Edited April 7, 2008 by I Zimbra

[DangerousDave]

Thanks for your replies Felix and Abuscule, I really appeciate it guys.

Glad you enjoyed your dinner yesterday Felix, it sounded excellent!

Was thinking about your suggestions a bit Felix, maybe bleaching the growroom before adding the fungi/bacteria isnt such a good idea! ("kills all known germs- dead" sorta thing?) so maybe citrofresh can be used as a surface cleanser in my grow room?? maybe an organic greenhouse cleaner from my local garden centre would be a better/cheaper idea, would these products dissapate and be expelled from my growroom enviroment faster than bleach?

Abuscule, I was looking into the rockdust but there are no suppliers near me, I did however find a new product called rootgrow rootfood the gumph states-

"Rootgrow rootfood is a natural fertiliser based on humates ..... Many gardens can be deficient in these natural humates and this can lead to poor plant growth and establishment, poor soil water-retention, and a depletion of beneficial micro-organisms such as friendly mycorrhizal fungi (rootgrow)."

I think this is different to rockdust, but the same idea? ie feeding the things in the soil which in turn help your plants to feed more efficiently via

the fungi?

Would this be a viable alternative to rockdust?

Anyway I am more than confident that Im gonna get a grip on this LSF business now, just waiting for Webby to get back to me, doesnt seem like hes around at the moment....

Thanks!

[I Zimbra]

Thanks for your replies Felix and Abuscule, I really appeciate it guys.

Glad you enjoyed your dinner yesterday Felix, it sounded excellent!

Was thinking about your suggestions a bit Felix, maybe bleaching the growroom before adding the fungi/bacteria isnt such a good idea! ("kills all known germs- dead" sorta thing?) so maybe citrofresh can be used as a surface cleanser in my grow room?? maybe an organic greenhouse cleaner from my local garden centre would be a better/cheaper idea, would these products dissapate and be expelled from my growroom enviroment faster than bleach?

Abuscule, I was looking into the rockdust but there are no suppliers near me, I did however find a new product called rootgrow rootfood the gumph states-

"Rootgrow rootfood is a natural fertiliser based on humates ..... Many gardens can be deficient in these natural humates and this can lead to poor plant growth and establishment, poor soil water-retention, and a depletion of beneficial micro-organisms such as friendly mycorrhizal fungi (rootgrow)."

I think this is different to rockdust, but the same idea? ie feeding the things in the soil which in turn help your plants to feed more efficiently via

the fungi?

Would this be a viable alternative to rockdust?

Anyway I am more than confident that Im gonna get a grip on this LSF business now, just waiting for Webby to get back to me, doesnt seem like hes around at the moment....

Thanks!

have you tried adding a mulch? full of goodies! oops sorry your on about something else! oh i think ill go back to sleep. have you tried bicarb of soda?

Edited April 7, 2008 by I Zimbra

[Felix Dzerzhinsky]

More relevantly nute requirements seem to be about 50% of my previous non inocculated attempts, with any dosages higher than about .5ml/ltr of grow, and 1.5ml/ltr of bloom resulting in clawing and tip burn the next day. Feeding every 4/5 days on wet'dry cycle, current compost is JAB + JI

SBP.

An interesting observation SBP, have you noticed any improvement to the roots in general when you've tipped out pots for say repotting or harvesting ? I'm thinking general health, larger mass that sort of thing ? I think I am seeing that kind of thing but haven't done a few pots without.

I don't know if the bacteria and fungi compete with the roots, I wouldn't have thought so..but you never know. What I meant was that they will be competing for the oxigen in the soil, like when brewing a compost tea the compost needs a good airing in order to stimulate micro life, if too much... Say molasses were to be used then the bacteria grows to quickly and uses up all the avalible oxigen. I'm thinking that maybe a similar thing is happening in the soil when these microbes get fed.... They go nuts a gorge themselves, use up the oxigen and go back to sleep, all the while the plant is saying "what about me! You gutsy bastards! You move in here use up all my air and go to sleep without asking me if I might like some fucking oxygen!!" or ofcourse I'm completely wrong but its food for thought aye

actually second thoughts.... That probably is bollocks

Could be I Zimbra, would be interesting to find out about oxygen levels in composts and what amounts of oxygen microbes use. See if you can find some research on the matter

Thanks for your replies Felix and Abuscule, I really appeciate it guys.

Glad you enjoyed your dinner yesterday Felix, it sounded excellent!

Was thinking about your suggestions a bit Felix, maybe bleaching the growroom before adding the fungi/bacteria isnt such a good idea! ("kills all known germs- dead" sorta thing?) so maybe citrofresh can be used as a surface cleanser in my grow room?? maybe an organic greenhouse cleaner from my local garden centre would be a better/cheaper idea, would these products dissapate and be expelled from my growroom enviroment faster than bleach?

A most tasty one indeed thanks An organic greenhouse cleaner would probably be far more friendly than bleach all round and wouldn't leave any nasty residues, so it's probably a better choice

Abuscule, I was looking into the rockdust but there are no suppliers near me, I did however find a new product called rootgrow rootfood the gumph states-

....snip....

I think this is different to rockdust, but the same idea? ie feeding the things in the soil which in turn help your plants to feed more efficiently via the fungi? Would this be a viable alternative to rockdust?

You can get rockdust from either The Organic Catalogue (Chase Organics) or Pinetum Products (Google is your friend), the pinetum rockdust is finer and OT reckons it's somewhat better. The delivery is a killer but if you can make it to Pinetum it's only a tenner a bag, they like folk to phone before turning up. RootFood is biohumates and worth using once or twice throughout the grow, be carefull not to overdo it as it can easily burn the roots. You can safely use it at 1/4 the strength they suggest.

Anyway I am more than confident that Im gonna get a grip on this LSF business now, just waiting for Webby to get back to me, doesnt seem like hes around at the moment....

Thanks!

Yeah Webby's a bit like that , he'll be back, no worries . You'll have it beat in no time.

[BluePixie]

More relevantly nute requirements seem to be about 50% of my previous non inocculated attempts, with any dosages higher than about .5ml/ltr of grow, and 1.5ml/ltr of bloom resulting in clawing and tip burn the next day. Feeding every 4/5 days on wet'dry cycle, current compost is JAB + JI

SBP.

An interesting observation SBP, have you noticed any improvement to the roots in general when you've tipped out pots for say repotting or harvesting ? I'm thinking general health, larger mass that sort of thing ? I think I am seeing that kind of thing but haven't done a few pots without.

Not really and to be honest I've been disappointed with the rootmass at harvest - but then again maybe the roots don't need to grow so much cos the fungus are doing their work for them to some extent. I'm not sure if the fungal hyphae extending into the compost should be visible to the naked eye?

[Felix Dzerzhinsky]

I seem to remember OT saying in his compost trials that the plants in Carrs compost had the smallest root masses yet did the best. Perhaps as you say the plant doesn't need a larger root mass and the hyphae would certainly be very delicate and maybe nearly invisible so that would explain why we don't see them easily.

RootGrow unlike the Granules doesn't contain trichoderma species so possibly it's not providing the same disease resistance but is improving the efficiency of nutrient uptake. When using the Granules the roots do seem to be somewhat whiter than when using RootGrow.

[Guest dr rockster]

He did say that Felix,was going to comment on it myself in response to SBP's comment about reduced nute requirements.

Is Carrs no longer available,out of business,does anyone know?

[Felix Dzerzhinsky]

I believe it is still available in the Gloucester area Doc

[smeagol]

evening all ... just thought i would say that i've been growing shark shock for over a year now with cuts from the original bonzai mum .. anyway i have two on the gor now .. they went into their last pots ( 11ltr ) last weekend ... these are my 1st plants using root grow/thric powder/rock dust .. well they had the healthiest root ball that i have seen in 18 mnths growing and they are probably the healthiest looking plants .. soil is same as i have used for last few grows .. 50% fertile fibre 50% moorland gold .. however when they went into their 1 1/2ltr pots they had plenty of leaf curl which i am guessing is down to what you guys have been talking about ... anyway thanx for this thread .. its been a trip